http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/fro...6HM1CRIME.html
Is this more electioneering on behalf of FF or will they actually implement any of this? Discuss
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http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/fro...6HM1CRIME.html
Is this more electioneering on behalf of FF or will they actually implement any of this? Discuss
Did they implement it the last time they said it, a few months ago?
Have they done anything about it since 1997?
The answer to these two questions is as obvious as your question. The only thing this Government have shown themselves capable of implementing is a well worded press release...
POTM.......Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I'm going to make what some people may consider a controversial viewpoint.
So long as an illegal and highly lucrative drugs trade exists, there will always be gun crime. In fact - that gun crime will get increasingly worse.
The drugs trade is by-far the single most lucrative illicit business on the planet. Vast fortunes are available to those involved in it. As a result, it is an 'industry' that is absolutely brutal - anyone involved in the drugs trade to any significant level has to have access to armed gangs, as otherwise they'll be wiped out. The illegal drugs trade is therefore the one thing that is creating armed criminal gangs in this country and elsewhere. Guns are therefore merely a symptom of this growing criminal industry. If you want to tackle guns, you therefore need to address the core of the 'illness' - and not just the symptoms. Only by effectively addressing the drugs trade will gun crime itself be properly addressed.
However - the money involved in drugs is so vast, that I cannot see ANY legal punishment that will act as a sufficient deterrent to getting involved in the drugs trade. Criminals always work on the assumption that they won't get caught anyway (as otherwise, they wouldn't do it) - and when you add to that the phenomenal financial incentive available from involvment in the drugs trade, it is obvious that nothing judicial will stop it. I'm not even convinced that the death penalty would stop it - as we see in other countries around the world that have incredibly strict penalties, but still have a drugs trade.
And not only does the illegal drugs trade create armed criminal gangs, it also creates a raft of other petty criminal issues, along with health and social problems. The illegal drugs trade is therefore the source of a massive amount of the criminal and social problems any modern society faces. For as long as this business exists, those problems will exist - regardless of criminal scentencing.
Therefore - the only truly effective way to tackle this whole situations is for the State to take over the licensing, supply and distribution of the currently illegal drugs. By taking that entire industry out of the hands of armed criminal gangs, you reduce the necessity for those gangs to be armed. Doubtless they would move onto other criminal activities, but they would be businesses that are much harder work with much lower returns (e.g. prostitution) - and the sheer necessity for armed violence within them would be much lower.
Meanwhile - a state-controlled drugs industry could aim to reduce the personal, social, criminal and health problems users of drugs and communities face. For example - it is not heroin itself that causes medical problems for users. Pure heroin is addictive, but beyond that it does not in itself damage your health. What does create health problems for heroin addicts is all the sh!t that gets mixed with the drug on the street in order to bulk it out. A state-controlled distribution system for drugs could remove the non-addiction related health problems heroin users face, whilst slowly weaning them off the drug.
State-control could also effectively monitor individual's usage of substances - whether they be a 22yr old Trinity student from Blackrock with a social cocaine habit or a 32yr old single mum from Ballymun with an addiction to crack - and seek to help the more heavier users with their problem. It would also reduce the need for a large portion of the criminal activity that addicts use to feed their habit - shop-lifting, prostitution, street robbery, petty theft etc.
If the state supplied fully regulated drugs to individuals in a safe, controlled, monitored, discreet and price-competitive fashion, then the need for the vast majority of individuals to turn to street-suppliers would be removed. Overnight, a massive industry would be legalised. Overnight, the income of armed criminal gangs would be decimiated, and the need for them to remain armed would decline dramatically as the balance between the benefits and the punishment for crimes they would then move onto would be much less in their favour than with drugs.
Until the illegal drugs trade is tackled, we will have an increasing gun crime problem. No amount of political or judicial bravado will alter that fact.
Steve
can you provide an example of where this has worked?
and dont say holland ;-)
No - for the simple fact that NO-ONE has tried it. Holland's example was nowhere near what I'm proposing - and was in fact only a slightly more tolerant version of what exists in most Western nations (turning a blind eye to small-scale sale and usage of weaker substances).Quote:
Originally Posted by wws
Conversely - can you provide me an example of where the judicial-based criminal policy of a 'war on drugs' has worked ? We have c.200 countries in the world where drugs have been illegal for decades, and in some cases for over a century. Yet not one single success story in tackling the existence of drugs, or the criminal, health and social problems it creates. NOT ONE !!
The definition of madness is to keep doing the same thing whilst expecting/hoping for a different outcome. Does the 'madness' of the world's current approach to drugs not suggest it might be time for a different approach...?
Matters little what my personal opinion is but government distributed drugs just isn't realistic. Its a sure fire vote loser too.
I don't think your position is a controversial one. It's long been suggested by all right minded people that can see that the War on Drugs can't be won. However, I'd also legalise and regulate prostitution, so that knocks another thing of the list that they can go into. No reason why hash/ grass couldn't be sold and regulated as tobacco is and then it'd be raising funds for the treatment of harder drugs.
I'm currently reading a book on Manchesters Gangs. Just up to when the second generation of Gooch and Doddies came through - very similar to the incidents that are happening in parts of Dublin. Also, there was no trade in herion and therefore no dealers up till the early 70's, as herion addiction was treated as a disease with GP's prescribing herion for users. No trade = no drug gangs = no turf wars and also meant no petty crime by users.
Political realities change Pete. Would you have thought 10 years ago that Irish people would accept being told they couldn't smoke in a pub...? Or 20 years ago that they'd have to pay if they wanted plastic bags to carry their shopping home ? Political realities continually change, as does society.Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I agree with you that a government regulated drug's trade wouldn't go down with voters anywhere at the moment, due to inbuilt prejudices. People just aren't conscious of the impact of the illegal drugs business. When they get mugged or their car gets broken into, they don't click that it is more than likely that the person doing those crimes was seeking to fuel a drug's habit. And that the money made by selling their car stereo will go towward further arming criminal gangs in West Dublin.
The key here is the media. The government need to take the intiiative and work with the media to explain to people the impact the drug's trade is having. Then, once awareness fo teh extent of the problem has been rasied, people will be more open to 'controversial' proposals on how to tackle it.
However - this would require extremely courageous political leadership. Which means it won't happen in Ireland. Sooner or later a significant parrty somewhere in Western Europe will put this whole issue onto the political map, and push it into the mainstream. Some time after that, a government somewhere in Europe will try it. If it's a success, then it will slowly filter out to other countries. This may take decades to happen, but I believe it will sooner or later.
Take prostitution. That's another 'illegal' trade that creates massive criminal, social and health problems through its prohibition. But its also anotehr trade that will ALWAYS exist. Attempts to ban it have failed spectacularly since time began, so a number of societieis are now trying the approach of regulating them. And not just in Germany, Australia and Holland - but also more recently in places like Liverpool. The numbers doing so will only continue.
What would you suggest as effective and workable alternatives to reducing the neagtive symptoms of an illegal drugs trade - e.g. gun crime?
getting off the hard drugs side but the clampdown on smoking in pubs represents a move towards a war on so called soft drugs like nicotine addiction....alchohol will probably next on this list in terms of licensing tightening - this is exactly at odds with ending a war on harder drugs - ie a nanny state type crackdown on our popular addictions based on the health angle - in such a climate the fresh approach to control of hard drugs would simply be unthinkable by the current parties who are pushing the health thing. I largely agree with your original post steve i was just wondering if anyone implemented it successfully - i think the swiss did something along the lines but not sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by dcfcsteve
Did I read somewhere that the Dutch are disappointed with their "liberal" policies regarding drugs and prostitution? I'm not tallking about the right wing Dutch parties. Apparently, the drug and prostitution scene over there is now infiltrated with East European gangs who are fcuking out the original dealers/pimps etc and there has been an upsurge in violence as a result.
This is an incredibly difficult problem for society/government to deal with.
One thing that really annoys me. Given the popularity of cocaine in the upper and middle class scene - y'know the "social drug" scene? Do these people ever think about the horrific treatment meted out to poverty stricken Columbians who's kids are held hostage so that the poor have to produce the leaves for the crooks and are perpetually in debt to these gangsters. Add in the layers of dealers/shippers etc etc in between and it's a story of brutality and misery all along that chain before it reached the credit card of the whizz kids. Ditto with all other "cool" drugs.
I honestly don't know how society/government will really deal with this curse??? Is there any solution or even part solution to this crises??
In a word hamish ..No there is no Quick Fix(excuse the pun)solution! I do worry though as a father of a young child.I was brought up respectfully and wouldn't consider myself to be a Scumbag of any shape or form I have however dabbled in Drugs from time to time.I see cocaine as the new hash in so much as when I was a teenager practically everyone of my peer's had some experiance of Hash. cocaine at that time was considered-by the young folks-as a hard drug ie. on a parr with heroin. and when I look around at today's 16-20 year old's it seems that most of them are doing coke as if its nothing this is a worrying trend,and with the rise of Crack cocaine in this country I dread to think what it will be like for my Daughter when she hits her teens.Quote:
Originally Posted by sirhamish
Back to the original question - Ahern is already saying there will be no new legislation or any special crack (no pun intended) down. Is this the record for FF/PD back tracking?
[MOD EDIT: Tone it down or I'll start deleting again.]
Well a gun amnesty is a good idea. Apart from providing the Gardaí with a source of evidence for convicting murderers; it would reduce the number of illegal weapons on the streets for a few days at least!
The Turbine gave McDowell a right lashing about all this last Sunday.
This Government is prone to knee jerk reactions over heavy situations, like all governments. Gun crime is on the increase in this country, but the Interior Ministry likes to dress up the figures to say that crime is down. Remember, the Irish police are one of only three unarmed units in the world. The other two countries are the UK and New Zealand.
Apparently the Arming the gardai Issue was put to a vote of GRU members a couple of years back and they voted against. Find it hard to fathom as I wouldn't fancy going up against an UZI totting scumbag with nothing more than a baton and a can of pep spray
I'd guess the thinking was that as soon as the Gardai get armed, so will more of the bad guys !Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
Strange to think that the Scandinavian countries have armed police. Doesn't quite seem to fit in with their usually libertarian mind-set, and their relatively low crime rates.