Anti-War March, Dublin 18th of March

[dahamsta]

Surely it's down to the native people within those countries to try to solve their own situation

I don't think the Iraqi / Afghani people were in a position to solve their own situation, because Saddam and his cronies stomped on any form of opposition that appeared. Somtimes you've just got to be a good neighbour. I just don't think the Bush administration was doing that, I think they had agenda. Call it oil, call it imperialism, call it what you want, I just call it an agenda.

adam

[Hither green]

Goebbels

“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.”

And as true today as 500 years ago as Goebbels must have ripped that off Machiavelli:

“People are fickle by nature; and it is a simple to convince them of something but difficult to hold them in that conviction; and, therefore, affairs should be managed in such a way that when they no longer believe, they can be made to believe by force.”

-If you are "anti-coaltion intervention" you would have wanted the coaltion never in Afghanistan i.e. Taliban rule remains

If that’s what being anti-war means then yes I must want the Taliban to remain and Saddam to still be in power. I certainly don’t miss those regimes but I regret how they were overthrown. If I could turn back the clock and could stop the wars then I guess they would still be in power. There are odious regimes throughout the world, if the west wants to be world policemen and champion of democracy then they can do so indiscriminately and not just pick on the countries they don’t like. Top of my list would be Zimbabwe, China and Israel.

And as for Irish support for Hamas... what a small impoverished citizen army fighting against an evil and wealthy occupying regime and without international assistance, I wonder why the Irish would support that?

[jebus]

Gotta love coming back to a thread you started and watch it slowly veer straight off topic!

[Condex]

AS long as there are powers on the Security Council with a permanent right to veto the U.N.will be toothless. Especially as one of them ( U.S.A.) is behind in it's subscription fees payment schedule. What that does is deny the U.N. of adequate resources to fund it's many worthwhile organisations such as the W.H.O. and U.N.I.C.E.F.

CollegeTillIDie would you by any chance be anti-American

The reason that the UN doesnt function properly is that its rotten and corrupt!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...2/s1571851.htm

and that is why there was no action taken in Darfur where 10,000s of people have been killed..

[Risteard]

NEO-CONdex

[dahamsta]

The next person to use the term "anti-american" in the wrong context will be banned from this forum permanently, since it's blatant trolling at this stage.

[hamish]

The next person to use the term "anti-american" in the wrong context will be banned from this forum permanently, since it's blatant trolling at this stage.

Yep, Dahamsta, as I posted above, criticism of Bubble Boy and his cronies and you get the inevitable smear of being anti-American - what a shallow and knee-jerk reaction from the wingnuts.

Actually, CTID made a good point, people signed petitions and then whinged about not getting a green card.

BTW, CTID, I've NEVER noticed you posting tat, except when you're slaggin' moi.

[Condex]

..............long rambling post........................

Can you get to the point a bit quicker, most people don't have time to trawl through your posts looking for whatever point your trying to make!!

[hamish]

Can you get to the point a bit quicker, most people don't have time to trawl through your posts looking for whatever point your trying to make!!

I suppose it's difficult to understand facts when propaganda and wingnut BS is easier to parrot.

[Bald Student]

Liam, I already told you I'm not going to repeat myself

Is this an oxymoron? I never fully understood the concept.

[dahamsta]

Kind of, but I was referring more to that fact that I'm not going to repeat my rebuttal. Again.

[hamish]

This is worth a look.

"How do we fix the mess in Iraq?"

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12313.htm

This is where I agree with mypost.

It's a quote from the above article.


"We cannot "fix" Iraq. The Iraqis surely can, and the sooner they are able to get started, the better. We might lead by example, illustrating to the Iranian clerics, and the Turkish nationalists, and the Israeli adventurers that it is polite and proper to give a partner some space, to let them find their own way."

[liam88]

Liam, I already told you I'm not going to repeat myself, and I'm not going to fish around in your post for points that aren't the same arguments retold.

The only reason I've re-told arguments is because you didn't respond to them

I will say, though, that your suggestion that people that oppose the "war", by extension support(ed) Saddam and the Taliban is frankly disgusting;

I never said they support them-I said by logic they would prefer them in power. I said before Afghanistan has existed in two situation Tliban controlled and Coalition controlled. Now by opposing a war to overthrow the Taliban surely said person is wanting the Taliban to stay in power?

Ok maybe i'm wrong but if I am here is my question to everyone who opposed/opposes the war:

What would you have preffered happened?

I mean to be honest personally I would have preffered a decent UN intervention but that was never going to happen-they didn't even have the will to intervene in Rwanda where 10 000 people were massacred with machettes. Now if they can't even stop a load of genocidal knife wielding maniacs how an earth can they overthrow the Taliban or Saddam? I agree with Hither Green ont here being worse regimes-I activly campaign against the Burmese and Chinese regimes as I think that these are the two worst in the world (maybe swayed by personal conenctions?) But it's not an "all or nothing situation-i'd rather one or two barbaric regimes were overthrown than none. If/when Burma is liberated I certainly don't want people campaigning against the liberation because North Korea reamins opressed.
Whatever the reason-whatever the dmage, Saddam and the Taliban are out of power and to my mind that is a good thing and worth it.

If you honestly believe that, well, I honestly feel sorry for you.

[Comment edited as it may be construed as personal by defensive types. ]

Attack the post not the poster?

[hamish]

Don't think anyone sheds tears for the Taliban or Saddam Liam88.

I, strangely, kinda agree a tiny bit with Condex and co. in that Islam has to get stronger and moderate leaders out front to diminish the effects that the radicals are having. I mean, the rads are infesting the mosques everywere according to a Muslim commentator on BBC last week and are setting the agenda left, right and centre.

Of course, Bubble Boy, Bliar and co aren't helping with their idiotic and immoral campaign in the Middle East.

Remember too that Saddam was a friend of the US and the West when it suited them.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

http://hnn.us/articles/1283.html

Although Rumsfeld said during a September 21, 2002 CNN interview, "In that visit, I cautioned him about the use of chemical weapons, as a matter of fact, and discussed a host of other things," the document indicates there was no mention of chemical weapons.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/US/09/3...regime.change/

-------------------------

This is interesting when one considers the way the US might be going. Just found it on Newshounds. Not as off topic as you might think.

The 14 Characteristics of Fascism

("Fascism Anyone?," Free Inquiry, Spring 2003)

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.
2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.
3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.
4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.
5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.
6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.
7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.
8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.
9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.
10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .
11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.
12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.
13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.
14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

--------------------

The Parasites of God - know your enemy if you want to march.
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12336.htm

[CollegeTillIDie]

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=440513&postcount=12

[CollegeTillIDie]

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=440513&postcount=12

[CollegeTillIDie]

CollegeTillIDie would you by any chance be anti-American

The reason that the UN doesnt function properly is that its rotten and corrupt!!

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...2/s1571851.htm

and that is why there was no action taken in Darfur where 10,000s of people have been killed..

Condex

Did you read my previous post about asking the petitionists who they represented?
The petition would have been anti-Ronald Reagan's visit to Ireland as far as I can recall.
I refused to sign the petition because the petitioner would not tell me what organisation he represented instead roundly abused me and my friend. I disagree with Bush big time. Had no issues with Bill Clinton at all so no I am not Anti-American.

The Americans are NOT the only people with permanent veto on the UN Security Council.

[hamish]

Here's an interesting article I came across from the FAIR** website (via The O'Franken Factor) today.

http://www.ofrankenfactor.com/


**Fairness Accuracy In Reporting.

[Plastic Paddy]

The only reason I've re-told arguments is because you didn't respond to them

I know how that feels...

http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=450412&postcount=44

PP

[hamish]

Here are a couple of interviews I strongly suggest you folks watch. Both are with, what might be termed, traditional Republicans. One, Kevin Phillips, has a new book out called "American Theocracy" and he blasts the current administration to a degree that even astonished me - even the Democrats would be surprised.
Colonel Larry Wilkerson is a former assistant to Colin Powell and he is wants the Republican part back, away from the current cabal of wingnuts and neo-cons.
Phillip's interview is around 33 minutes while Wilkerson's is about 13 minutes.
Any comments?? Please ler me know what you think.

Kevin Phillips
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12430.htm

Larry Wilkerson
http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12433.htm

When even traditional Republicans are worried then the US is in real trouble.