Islam (and the war in Iraq)

[hamish]

Dunno whether to laugh or cry at this.....

The declaration of dependence

We, the sheeple, in order to form a better flock, will abide by the rules of the elite so that we should remain loyal to those with better judgement, who have written our history and will write our future. That we will not see, hear or speak evil of those who we owe our continuing existence too and like 9/11 will act as a sheep whose eyes are blinded by the light of our leaders. That it is better to listen and obey than to question the judgement of those who know so much more than us. Just as Able Danger never existed, we can always count on our overseers to tell us the truth.

I pledge allegence to the government of the Secret State of America, and to the Elite for which it stands, one nation under surveillance, with liberty and justice for those that can afford it.

[mypost]

Once again, no substance to your argument against Fisk just labelling.

No??

Check out his comparison between the original mess the Brits cause in the regions which became Iraq and the current situation - frightening similarities from an historical point of view.

Do I need more substance than that? That's just one of his articles, there are many more similiar ones in circulation.

You're right. Bush and co. didn't initiate a pre-emptive war against Iraq, didn't take note of several warnings as to the mess that was gonna happen. If you believe Bush the Fool and his cronies are not responsible for initiating the mess, then you're in the land of Oz.

If the Kurd's, Sunni's and Shia's wage war on each other, that's not the coalition's business. The liberation to free Iraq of Saddam's despotic regime was ordered, conducted, and concluded successfully in 20 days. It offered the Iraqi's a chance to reconstruct their country and determine their own destiny, after 2.5 decades of ruthless violent oppression. The coalition can only do so much. If the locals decide to blow each other up in the meantime, in a messy power struggle, that's their problem.

EVERY poll in the US has Bush in the mid-30s regarding Iraq.

As I have said before, any polls on Bush at this stage are of no consequence, as he is not contending the next American election. You're stuck with him for another 30 months, so put up with it!

So, at least, I can balance my opinions with both sides of the story.When you read the other side of the argument (as I have), then I'll have dialogue with you.

You have taken a side on the Iraq conflict, I have taken the other. You'll have to respect that, and stop branding, screaming, and misquoting me when your posts are argued. There is no such thing as "neutral" in this war, and you don't switch sides, whether it be my stance on it, yours, the Irish (and other) Government's, Richard Barrett's anti-Bush attention-seeking mates, Robert Fisk's, or Al Qaeda's. I have taken a stance on the issue, and like most people, I am not interested in the other side's argument, views I don't like, agree with, or believe in. You take a stance and you stick to it, through good and bad.

You've brought nothing of substance to the table.

I've brought enough to the table. You don't like it, too bad. As neither of us are prepared to budge, we'll just have to agree to disagree about it.

[hamish]

Mypost - I'm beginning to think you're doing a wind-up job on me - hope I'm right because you can't be serious with your reply. IF SO - bravo. BUt the screaming jibe is just childish an silly. Don't confuse passion with screaming.

"If the Kurd's, Sunni's and Shia's wage war on each other, that's not the coalition's business. The liberation to free Iraq of Saddam's despotic regime was ordered, conducted, and concluded successfully in 20 days. It offered the Iraqi's a chance to reconstruct their country and determine their own destiny, after 2.5 decades of ruthless violent oppression. The coalition can only do so much. If the locals decide to blow each other up in the meantime, in a messy power struggle, that's their problem"

No argument from you about the warning to the Bushies of the mess that would follow. No mention of the Downing Street report, no mention of the recent book by The UK Ambassador to the US about plans for war and the similar one from another UK mbassador last week. No mention of the illegality of a preemptive war which was comdemned at the Nuremburg trials over 60s years ago. Remember Colin Powell's statements to Bush and others?

"Washington Post
"BY MONIFA THOMAS Staff Reporter
Former U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell on Saturday said the United States has made "serious mistakes" during the Iraq war that have led to the rising violence the country now faces.
Powell, in his keynote speech at the National School Board Association's annual conference in Chicago, also said the United States made visa requirements too strict for foreign students after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks. But he steered clear of talking about President Bush's alleged role in leaking classified prewar intelligence on Iraq.
"We made some serious mistakes in the immediate aftermath of the fall of Baghdad," Powell told a crowd of thousands at the McCormick Place conference. "We didn't have enough troops on the ground. We didn't impose our will. And as a result, an insurgency got started, and . . . it got out of control."

"Woodward wrote that behind the scenes, Powell used language from one of Tom Friedman's columns in referring to the "Pottery Barn rule" of foreign policy. That is: "you break it, you own it.""

The attack from the US was because of WMDs - every single right winger now acknowledges that was the reason given by Bush for attacking Iraq. Saddams liniks with Iraq also rediculed. Bush has acknowledged both.

It would be ultra callous to invade and then tell them to fcuk off and sort out their own problems. That's whats happening right now. Mypost you don't just invade a country and depose a thug like Saddam - a former Rumsfeld/Cheney ally BTW - and then whinge when the mess you've created doesn't work out - why did Bremner dissolve the Iraqi army - they're the bulk of the resistance and many have infiltrated the various militias/army/police force - all trained by the Yanks BTW. What happened to 20 BILLION Iraqi money which disappeared in the first year when in the hands of Bremners sidekicks? "You break it, You own it" Any other attitude is callous, hubristic and disgraceful. Shame on you mypost.

Do you agree or disagree with Fisk's historical comparision with the Brits entering Baghdad and the US doing same and the obvious parallels. If so, why? That's only one point in his lecture. Give me something of substance back, for God's sake - any counter point.........anything.

Leaving Fisk aside for a while, didn't you mention in another post about people in Iraq and what's life there or something to that effect? Did you look at the several Blogs FROM Baghdad I posted describing life on the ground there? Surely you want to know what life is like outside the Green Zone and in the Red Zone?

As I have said before, any polls on Bush at this stage are of no consequence, as he is not contending the next American election. You're stuck with him for another 30 months, so put up with it

Oh yeah?? William Kristol, one of the original Neo-Cons and PNAC people said a few days ago that Republicans are in deep trouble and will lose at least one of the houses -either the senate or House of Reps, If this happens, then there is a stronger chance that the Dems will impeach Bush, Cheney, Remufeld and co. Any wonder many budding Republican politicians are keeping him at arms length. Polls are important.

Where did I misquote you? Again, nothing of substance - just a statement.

As i posted above, I have searched the media,internet etc far and wide from the right wing to the moderate to the left to learn. Learning - that's the side I chose to stand on. Picking a stance and sticking with it to me is a sign of defeat, of intellectual laziness. That is why I deliberately posted the statements of Republicans/Neo-Cons/CIA/Conservaties and when I check out even the Republican sites I've been amazed at the amount of criticism that Republicans have made at Bush, Cheney, Rice and Rumsfeld. They're even fighting among themselves. Did you see Rumsfeld's reply to Condi rice's Blackburn "thousands" statement? Lindsey Graham (R), Chuck Hagel (R), John McCain (R), Richard Lugar (R) Arlene Spector (R) are among many highly important Republicans who are hammering Bush and co on everything from the Katrina tradegy to Dubai ports deal to Iraq to the economy.

Unlike you, I AM interested in your side of the argument and have left you loads of comments, debates, speeches, videos etc etc to look at and debate with me but you simply won't. You deserve a b.ollocking mypost. You really do.
Picking a stance and sticking to it is just condemning your good self to the hell of self-imposed fascism. What the hell do you want to do that for??
Everyday, I look for signs of hope in Iraq - I search websites for signs of Iraqis coming together but all I get is bad news - even from Fox "News" - and that's saying something.

Just for interest sake, do you know anything about the following?

The Iranian Burse
The US Deficit
Kevin Phliips -(not the Villa player btw )
Larry Wilkerson
Jack Abramoff
Tom Delay
Jack Murtha
Chuck Hagel
Arlene Spector (on Fox "NEWS) on Sunday)
Seymour Hersh (on US TV on Sunday - see video in Iran's Nukes thread
Chuck Cunningham (in jail now)
Pamela de Maigret**
Scott Ritter

** Life long hard core Republican - she talks about the dollar/oil/euro probllem and the Florida voting machine etc scam (the latter about half way through the 15 min interview)

http://www.iwtnews.com/videoplayer/pamela_de_maigret

I'll shower you with respect if you provide serious evidence and counter points to my posted commenst from myself and the people, above, I mentioned, I deliberately searched for Conservative viewpoints to reach out to you and you bring back ..............nothing.

Maybe you're happier with these people

Ann Coulter
"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war."

It's not terrorism that's bad, it's Muslims who are bad. And Christianity will make them good. Those crusades in the 11th and 12th centuries, they were great for world peace weren't they? And the carpet bombing of German cities is cited by many as an Allied war crime. It did little to win the war (that was done by the brave American grunts at Normandy). Mostly all it did was kill a lot of innocent women and children. Oh, never mind. I was trying to be rational again

"When contemplating college liberals, you really regret once again that John Walker is not getting the death penalty. We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors."

Her words were applauded by National Security Adviser Condoleeza Rice, Secretary of Health and Human Services Tommy Thompson, and Lynne Cheney (wife of Vice President Cheney), all of whom were in attendance

COULTER: I take the biblical idea. God gave us the earth.

PETER FENN (Democratic strategist): Oh, OK.

COULTER: We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees.

FENN: This is a great idea.

COULTER: God says, "Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours."

FENN: Terrific. We're Americans, so we should consume as much of the earth's resources...

COULTER: Yes! Yes.

FENN: ... as fast as we possibly can.

COULTER: As opposed to living like the Indians

"My only regret with Timothy McVeigh is he did not go to the New York Times Building."

This is the type of kook who supports the Bushies.

[hamish]

Another few quotes from the wingnuts

Michelle Malkin - Blogger/Media Whore

Malkin: One of the themes of my book is that civil liberties are not sacrosanct. While we should never be contemptuous of civil liberties, we ought not make a fetish of them either. When we are at war, certain infringements (e.g., military tribunals for suspected al Qaeda operatives), while regrettable, are justified.

Malkin referred to Women for Kerry (a "community" within Senator John Kerry's presidential campaign) as "an embarrassment to a nation at war."

Glenn Beck CNN Radio

At the beginning of a call with one who identified himself as an intelligence officer who used torture in the past to extract information from U.S. prisoners, Beck praised, "I've got to tell you I appreciate your service."

Acknowledging Olbermann's "Worst Person in the World" designation, Beck said Sheehan is "pimping out the tragedy of her own son's death"

Olbermann named CNN hire Glenn Beck "Worst Person" for calling Cindy Sheehan "a pretty big prostitute

"[I]f I'm an interrogator, and they say, [imitates Arabic accent] 'I read in your papers that you cannot torture me,' I'll say, 'Yeah, you know, you saw another thing in the papers, you saw pictures of people being tortured. And I just want you to look around, little, uh, Habib, here, I want you to look around the room. Notice one thing is missing, and that's called a camera.' " [6/23/04

Michael Savage Wingnut Radio

In the course of the shows, Savage called Arabs "non-humans" and "racist, fascist bigots"; asserted that Americans would like to "drop a nuclear weapon" on any Arab country; and that "these people" in the Middle East "need to be forcibly converted to Christianity" in order to "turn them into human beings."


Rush Limbaugh Wingnut Radio (20 million listeners)
On Abu Ghraib

Here's Rush's sociological evaluation of what really happened at Abu Ghraib, as quoted in a piece in The New Republic on Limbaughism:

"This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it, and we're going to hamper our military effort, and then we are going to really hammer them because they had a good time. You know, these people are being fired at every day. I'm talking about people having a good time, these people, you ever heard of emotional release? You [ever] heard of need to blow some steam off?"

Now, don't you feel like a dopey dittohead for letting a little outbreak of prisoner sadism bug you? These were just boys and girls blowing off steam during a stressful situation. Let's not make an international incident out of it, for crying out loud.

In Rush's world, this is essentially geopolitical spilled milk:

"I don't understand what we're so worried about. These are the people that are trying to kill us. What do we care what is the most humiliating thing in the world for them? There's also this business of them all wearing hoods and how that’s also very humiliating. You can see more guys wearing hoods at a [Sen.] Robert Byrd birthday party 40 years ago than we've seen in these prisoner photos."

Mypost Iraqi Expert

"If the Kurd's, Sunni's and Shia's wage war on each other, that's not the coalition's business. The liberation to free Iraq of Saddam's despotic regime was ordered, conducted, and concluded successfully in 20 days. It offered the Iraqi's a chance to reconstruct their country and determine their own destiny, after 2.5 decades of ruthless violent oppression. The coalition can only do so much. If the locals decide to blow each other up in the meantime, in a messy power struggle, that's their problem"

[CollegeTillIDie]

Actually if it comes to cause and effect in all this then Britain is ultimately to blame. A look at many of the World's problem areas will show that what they have in common is that the British Empire was there to a greater or lesser degree. Iraq is a case in point British interference writ large established the state in the first place . As is the usual Middle East Israel/Palestinian conflict.

and when it comes down to it they colonised what we now call the USA initially in the 17th Century. Let's blame the Brits

[dcfcsteve]

Actually if it comes to cause and effect in all this then Britain is ultimately to blame. A look at many of the World's problem areas will show that what they have in common is that the British Empire was there to a greater or lesser degree. Iraq is a case in point British interference writ large established the state in the first place . As is the usual Middle East Israel/Palestinian conflict.

and when it comes down to it they colonised what we now call the USA initially in the 17th Century. Let's blame the Brits

There's a huge grain of truth in this.

Britain's approach to foreign affairs for decades ran along the 'divide and conquer ideology'. When it came to them having to make tough decisions with regards the different factions they helped divide, they just told each group that they'd get what they wanted and then scarpered without delivering anything - leaving the countries concerned in an inevitable mess.

This happened in Cyprus, Palestine, Iraq, South Africa and Ireland. It's too far down the timeline of history to blame this former British foreign policy for the mess Iraq is in - but their role in it by fecking up their post WWI mandate needs at least to be acknowledged.

[Dodge]

lads don't be putting smilies into a cracking serious thread.

[hamish]

Fisk (with a few words from Chomsky) cover all the Brit involement nicely here - even Charles Dickens gets a mention - didn't know he'd been in Iraq. It's nearly two hours long but worth a listen. Armenia is also mentioned here.

http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12661.htm

Pictures from the Iraq obscenity

WARNING - MANY OF THESE PICTURES MAY CAUSE EXTREME DISTRESS.

http://iraq-kill-maim.org/

[hamish]

Gosh, isn't the liberation of Iraq a great thing altogether??

CAUTION - this film is not for the faint of heart

What Really Happened In "Falluja April 2004"

"Director Toshikuni DOI exposes the side of the U.S. war in Iraq that Americans do not see or hear in mainstream media."

Ten days after the siege of Falluja was lifted, Toshikuni Doi, a Japanese independent journalist, went into Falluja. His documentary, investigates the causes of, conditions during, and damages from the siege.
Warning
This film contains graphic images. Viewer discretion advised.


http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle12665.htm

[liam88]

Bush & his cohorts are scum of the highest order and deserve all they get for invading other people's countries.

Interesting point here......I think it could quite easily be argued that it wasn't Saddam's country to rule int he first place....so if you declare that Bush etc. "deserve all they get" for taking over a coutnry they have no legitimacy to rule thus leading to the deaths of many innocent people perhaps Saddam deserved all he got for taking over a country he had no legitimate right to rule this leading to the deaths of many innocent people.....

I think your use of the term "invading other people's countries" also has a few flaws. Firstly perhaps it was more of a liberation than an invasion? Power has been handed over to a democratically elected government. Yes technically it was an invasion but it wasn't to take power was it?
Also was it the people's coutnry under Saddam? I think a country is only truly the people's country under democracy when people have voted in their leader and get a regular chance to vote them out.

Also worth noting an article by BCC a while back about how the Kurdish part of Iraq ahs been flourishing since the liberation.

re. Google-fair play to Sir Hamish and his blogs but Google is by no means a comprehensive search-simply a corporate human rights abusing multinational with a practical monopoly on search engines.

Finally a question to the mods-I started this topic to discuss people's views on whether violence associated to Islam was due to politics becomming involved with Islam, Islamic theology or something else (and to this got some very interesing and thought provokign answers). Now however the thread-including it's title and turned into a topic on the war on Iraq. PReviously when threads start to wonder off topic the mods lock them and say this has gone off topic it stops here. In this cade the thread is wondering off topic and the mods have changed the title to suit the change. Is this a new policy? If not what makes you decide whether you split/merge/lock or simpyl change the thread title??

[hamish]

Interesting point here..........change the thread title??

1/Liam - fault is mine for all this - apologies for that - got a bit carried away TBH - only a matter of time before Dahamsta, rightly, bans me for this
2/Don't blame Google/messenger - blogs are from Iraqis, Muslims, living in Iraq - what better way to find out the truth?
3/See sites I posted and see if the illegal invasion (UN did NOT sanction it) is for liberation or to do with US interests in the Middle East - check out The Iranian Bourse stuff/oil/dollar/deficit etc. It's got absolutely nothing to do with liberation.
4/Recognise the two characters in this photo?? Read the text under the picture too.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/rumsfeld-saddam.jpg
5/You're right - it wasn't Saddam's country and it isn't/wasn't the USA's either - what democracy??? What government? What Shi-ite death squads? Check out ethnic cleaning and killings of Arabs in Kurdistan
6/Have a look at the Fallujhah video above and the Iraqi blogs - what do THEY - not you, not I - feel about all this?
7/Everything you mentioned in your post I have a related blog/website/post to give you an over-view.
8/It really does tie in with Islam, the violence and counter violence etc so, in many ways it IS on thread - the Muslim feelings/views etc of us in the West from centuries of abuse. Listen to the two Fisk speeches I posted.
9/Just read them - especially the blogs -feck Google, they're irrelevant - and then see how you feel.

That's all I ask?? Fair is fair.

[strangeirish]

1/Liam - fault is mine for all this - apologies for that - got a bit carried away TBH - only a matter of time before Dahamsta, rightly, bans me for this

Ah he won't ban you 'hamish, but he is going to kick your arse for quoting entire posts again.

[hamish]

Ah he won't ban you 'hamish, but he is going to kick your arse for quoting entire posts again.

Sorted. heh heh

[liam88]

Fair play Hamish-I wasn't slating you. I know I got a bit carried away with the anti-google sentiment-just the way RDB said you quote sites "Google didn't know about". Will look through some mroe of your blogs when I get a chance-just as i mentioned before look as Iraq pre/post liberation/invasion....Bush etc. brough Iraq it's first democratic vote in over 50 years....I know Iraq isn't perfect but was it really any better under Saddam? Bush hasn't made the change but he's potentially given the Iraqi people the chance to achieve it by removing Saddam.....now the future is in the Iraqi people's hands

[hamish]

Fair play Hamish-I wasn't slating you. I know I got a bit carried away with the anti-google sentiment-just the way RDB said you quote sites "Google didn't know about". Will look through some mroe of your blogs when I get a chance-just as i mentioned before look as Iraq pre/post liberation/invasion....Bush etc. brough Iraq it's first democratic vote in over 50 years....I know Iraq isn't perfect but was it really any better under Saddam? Bush hasn't made the change but he's potentially given the Iraqi people the chance to achieve it by removing Saddam.....now the future is in the Iraqi people's hands

Nah, know you weren't slating me Liam amigo. Sadly, many Iraqis are saying that life is as bad now as it was in Saddam's times - unbelievable as that sounds.
It's the reasons WHY Bush and his cronies invaded is what makes me furious. You'll see when you check out the various posts/blogs. Nowt to do with WMD, 9/11 - the reason they said they invaded. Check out recent data - ie Downing Street report and others - he'd already made up his mind as had PNAC. Liberation was just a snow job.

[dahamsta]

Split here.

[hamish]

Colin Powell finally comes clean

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/..._libby_powell/

Excerpt
“The CIA was pushing the aluminum tube argument heavily and Cheney went with that instead of what our guys wrote,” Powell said. And the Niger reference in Bush’s State of the Union speech? “That was a big mistake,” he said. “It should never have been in the speech. I didn’t need Wilson to tell me that there wasn’t a Niger connection. He didn’t tell us anything we didn’t already know. I never believed it.”

W@nker

[dahamsta]

Powell was hung out to dry with that presentation imho. He was, to a great degree, the voice of reason within the Bush administration up to that point, and it was blindingly obvious from days before that he really didn't want to do it; that he knew it would be first nail in his coffin; that everyone knew he knew, etc, etc. Someone somewhere in the Bush administration has some major dirt on Powell. The "biolabs" have been exposed as another Bush administration fraud, of course. Who didn't see that happening?

Clinton gets impeached for telling a porkie about having his winkle quaffed by a loose-lipped groupie, and still nobody's called for Bush's head? But what would be the point? There's nothing in it after all...

adam

[mypost]

Time to change to a different tack. What do we find on PlanetMuslim today, I wonder??

Ah, I see, yet another flimsy excuse for a scrap. Just a normal day out for them then.

[hamish]

Here's more on that aspect Dahamsta

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle4518.htm
Excerpt
In recent weeks, any “plausibility” has all but evaporated. Many biological warfare specialists in the US and elsewhere were skeptical from the start. Now Defense Intelligence Agency specialists have joined their counterparts at the State Department and elsewhere in concluding that the two trailer/laboratories discovered in Iraq in early May are hydrogen-producing facilities for weather balloons to calibrate Iraqi artillery, as the Iraqis have said.

Poodle Bliar is now on his own in Europe

http://www.plenglish.com/article.asp...D)&language=EN

Some Steve Bell cartoons on the Iraq and related matters

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...284265,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...738726,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...726082,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...720563,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...715240,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...673408,00.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...656182,00.html
Shouldn't be laughing really given the seriousness of it all

As for Bush's brain, this is for you Dahamsta
http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/s...602767,00.html