Public v Private Sector Debate

[pete]

The only reason I have time to post here is because I'm contracted to the State and spend a lot of my day, waiting on cs staff to deliver.
You'd choke if you knew how much I cost the State per day!

Who made the decision to hire you lot? Civil Servants?

[SÓC]

Well spotted, still think you're a political dinosaur though.

KOH

"Now go away"

WAR in agreeing with Bertie shocker

[Macy]

People working crazy hours, living to work instead of working to live should organise themselves. People can't see that the reason they're working crazy, illegal hours is because they've abandoned Trade Unions, voted for the Tories in the UK/ FF and PD's in this country, and instead blame those in work places that have kept that commitment going.

There is no conceivable reason that people can be advocating working the hours that Paul O'Shea is quoting. That is madness. It would not be worth the additional money to work in that kind of environment - so that's the pay off. Less money* for better terms and conditions in the Public Sector, or taking a step back to the 1800's for more money and no life. All you've done is swap the mill for an office.

*And it is less money for most civil and public servants, regardless of flawed average figures that are put out.

[dahamsta]

We're accountable to a private company, not the taxpayer...

It works both ways Peadar, and you know it. I don't know whether you work in a large company or not, but the vast majority of large companies work solely for profit, with little or no consideration for employees, customers, the environment or anything else. The civil service has it's faults, but so does the private sector. Trying to prove that one is better than the other in general is like trying to nail jelly to the ceiling.

adam

[dahamsta]

BTW, the public/private "where do you find the time" jokes stopped being funny after the first one. Get back on topic please, save the jokes for OT.

adam

[Peadar]

People working crazy hours, living to work instead of working to live should organise themselves. People can't see that the reason they're working crazy, illegal hours is because they've abandoned Trade Unions, voted for the Tories in the UK/ FF and PD's in this country, and instead blame those in work places that have kept that commitment going.

The fact of the matter is that it's people with determination, commitment and ambition, in the private sector, who have turned Ireland into such a wealthy country. The civil servants want to get pay increases, on the back of our ability.

The civil service hasn't changed since Ireland was under British rule, yet they expect credit for powering our economy.

[paul_oshea]

I think it shows in the last 15 years what international investment and privatisation-leading to- better competition and better infrastructure can do.

dahamasta, I am not going to get into a big thing about this ( this comment and thats it ), but there isn't much if any difference between, "you are ignorant" and "you dont have a clue".

Finally, I think some people are too sensitive, its not a case of "my dick is bigger than your dick" i.e. my job and what i do is better than you, which is what certain people seemed to think. It was more a public v private sector and attitudes to work I was refering to.

[WeAreRovers]

"Now go away"

WAR in agreeing with Bertie shocker

I'm more a FFer every day. Getting old I suppose.

KOH

[Macy]

The fact of the matter is that it's people with determination, commitment and ambition, in the private sector, who have turned Ireland into such a wealthy country

And it was the Trade Unions that came up with the idea of a national plan aka national wage agreement that developed the right environment to allow that to take place.

Even if you accept that argument, then you must also recognise that public servants relative position has dramatically decreased during this period too. A teacher, nurse, clerical officer, executive officer used to be relatively well off, being able to afford housing on the open market in Dublin for example. Now most don't even reach the rate to allow them qualify for affordable housing. So it hasn't been without cost to the public service if that's the arguement you want to make.

[paul_oshea]

You'd choke if you knew how much I cost the State per day!

1000 euro a day id say, in and around anyhow!!!

Macy, madness yes maybe but it depends what you want from life and how quickly.

The reason that gets people is because it is so hard to get into the public sector ( almost like an old boys network in one sense ), and they see its cushy and a handy number, then they see their paycheck and 800 a month is coming out on tax or whatever. Maybe its jealously, I dont know ( not in my case, not yet anyhow ), but it makes people ask awkward questions, and it also makes people perceive things, that when you go in and see for yourself, can be answered!!!

[Macy]

I think it shows in the last 15 years what international investment and privatisation-leading to- better competition

Name the privatisations and deregulations that have lead to better service and reduced costs? Even the great white hope of deregulation the taxi has actually meant cost increases to consumer. CIE, which FF/PD want to privatise is actually one of the most efficient in europe (of both privatised markets and publicly operated)

better infrastructure can do.

Infrastructure nearly all public funded anyway, and there was a recent report that showed that for roads the public funded schemes came in cheaper than Public Private Partnerships.

[paul_oshea]

Infrastructure nearly all public funded anyway, and there was a recent report that showed that for roads the public funded schemes came in cheaper than Public Private Partnerships.

hmmm, look at most of the PPP's came in on-time nearly 100% of the time, plus under-budget and a lot of the time a few months early, that never happens out of PPP's. What do you think Macy has fuelled and/or funded this, I mean all the money available for roads etc? Going off topic btw kinda.

[Macy]

The EU mostly funded it. If I have time I'll dig out the report. It was only in the last couple of days.

[pete]

The reason that gets people is because it is so hard to get into the public sector ( almost like an old boys network in one sense ), and they see its cushy and a handy number, then they see their paycheck and 800 a month is coming out on tax or whatever. Maybe its jealously, I dont know ( not in my case, not yet anyhow ), but it makes people ask awkward questions, and it also makes people perceive things, that when you go in and see for yourself, can be answered!!!

I think there is an element of that & shows that Benchmarking was one of the greatest scams ever sold to the Nation. Countless studies have shown that public sector pay & conditions are greater than the private sector which proves that Benchmarking has screwed the taxpayer & provided nice benefits for the public sector.

Some days I think i'd like a nice cushy number in the public sector but then I realise i'd be bored in a few days. Unless i;m busy I get bored at work very easily.

Reading recently how Shannon airport workers turned down average redundency payment of 100k plus new (lower paid) job in outsourced job (i assume this guaranteed for some period of time). I think they would come out with 70k after tax I can think of no private sector person who would turn down that deal so must be some cushy job in Shannon airport.

[BohsPartisan]

Countless studies have shown that public sector pay & conditions are greater than the private sector which proves that Benchmarking has screwed the taxpayer & provided nice benefits for the public sector.

Countless biased studies by IBEC that take public service pay as an average including Sec Gens, P.O.s A.P.s (High grades) T.D.s and Government ministers!!!
An entry level Clerical officer earns 21 grand per year. The majority of civil servants are of that grade. An entry level EO (middle management) gets 27 grand. If you work at IT in the civil service your earnings are based on your grade not on your skills. You would get way more in the private sector.

[Macy]

Countless studies have shown that public sector pay & conditions are greater than the private sector which proves that Benchmarking has screwed the taxpayer & provided nice benefits for the public sector.

How many times do we have go through this? Countless studies that use average pay which includes the top brass, politicians, high overtime jobs like the Gards and Prison Service. The whole scheme, as well as national wage agreements, paying on percentages have lead to massive increases for the top levels of the civil service, and giving handy fodder to the likes of IBEC. It's the same bull**** statistical analysis that Cowen has used to try and claim only 20% of workers are paying at the top rate of tax, or do you believe that too?

[BohsPartisan]

hmmm, look at most of the PPP's came in on-time nearly 100% of the time, plus under-budget and a lot of the time a few months early, that never happens out of PPP's. What do you think Macy has fuelled and/or funded this, I mean all the money available for roads etc? Going off topic btw kinda.

Port Tunnel.
Also "On time" and "under budget" are terms relative to the targets that are set.

[kingdom hoop]

trudged through this thread with a few things sticking out...whatever inefficiencies are in the public sector are firstly a system problem, and secondly down to individuals - like a football team with stan in charge even the best will struggle but through their ability and determination they can emerge from the mundane, while the less ambitious can amble along safe in the knowledge that management wont drop them or see any of their faults because eventually someone else well cover for them.i mention ambition as i think going back a few decades(when there werent jobs elsewhere) the public sector was seen as guaranteeing a secure position for years, therefore people went for jobs as civil sevants,teachers, gardaí etc firstly because there wasnt really an alternative and then, as we are now discovering to our cost, without really considering there own attributes and individual talents. so that now we have people who are not happy in there jobs and as a result not producing what they could or should..the unions are protecting the jobs of such people now by resisting change, as in the Shannon example, macy - in the 1800s workers were downtrodden because of malevolent managers and, crucially, workers were afraid to speak up for themselves, now with huge labour mobility in the private sector people realise they can stand up and be counted without fear of not getting another job, or if they do a good job there is a good chance management well bow to their wishes or at least discuss the issue, unlike 100 years ago

[paul_oshea]

[quote]Also "On time" and "under budget" are terms relative to the targets that are set.[\quote]

that was a pointless project from the start, and who decided on that?

[pete]

trudged through this thread with a few things sticking out...whatever inefficiencies are in the public sector are firstly a system problem, and secondly down to individuals...

The system is run by Civil Servants!

That analogy is very eircomleague-esque. Clubs moaning about the way the eL run dispite the fact is was actually run by the clubs themselves.