I'll take it Pete and Superfrank aren't Buddhists then
I am only going by the Irish Prison System. Is it possible to "cure" criminals & why would a criminal see as the downside to serious crime? Up until recently even the high security prison seemed to allow the prisoners fairly reasonable luxuries. Aside from denial of freedom seems to be no downside. I don't agree with state sanctioned murder but serving 7 years for murder is beyond a joke.Originally Posted by Dodge
Thats not what I asked pete. have you any stats to back up your claim that rehabilitation doesn't work?
Oh and the vast majority of murderers don't re-offend. Surely thats the point?
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Fact is, prison doesn't punish anywhere like it should to act as a deterrent. Thus it's only function is to keep us safe in our homes and give us peace of mind that criminals are locked up and incapacitated. But we all know sentences in this country are extremely lenient, so we are very much short-changed in the whole equation. The current system we have thus fails on all major counts; deterrence, incapacitation and reform. The latter is one perhaps least explored in our discussions but is the most interesting in my view. I don't know much about the psychology etc of it all but how do you know people can't change? Leopards may not change their spots, but don't forget chameleons change their colour! Instead of being defeatist and saying it is impossible I'd be more of the view that reform is possible but the system in place is woefully inadequate, not giving any chance of reform. I've said it before and I'll say it again;
Ok fair enough the lobotomy idea may blemish my point, but at the very least I think hard labour is essential as that way the public is getting something back, tipping the scales in our favour a bit more compared to the way things are now. As for the reforming aspect, I don't think the Buddhist monastery notion, or similar, is all that outlandish. I'd be confident in betting that the vast majority of prisoners have never left this country, read a book, things like that, ie their horizons haven't been broadened, they don't know much about the world, don't appreciate its wonder, or realise the opportunities available. Open them up to the world and I think there is at least a chance some of them will change. I know I have. - joke. a poor one I realise
I think as a complimentary therapy to hard labour -pointless labour should also be on the cards -especially for those who produce sick notes ...and that'd surely be plenty.
I'm thinking production lines that produce nothing but paper-clip chains augmented by a secondary stage where all they do is dismantle paper-clip chains. The type of work that keeps the body occupied but gives the mind time to dwell upon it's errant ways
" I wish to God that someone would be able to block out the voices in my head for five minutes, the voices that scream, over and over again: "Why do they come to me to die?"
I bet ballyhenry would be outraged to learn that his Hang All Murderers thread has been rebranded as Crime and Punishment Discussion by the PC brigade around here!!
I am against capital punishment in theory but there are times when I would happily do the deed myself. Some people are absolute scum, and I wouldnt be slightly bothered if they happened to die but it is not worth the risk that a single innocent person would die because of capital punishment.
What we certainly do need though is harsher sentencing. Let them rot
May be of interest to people that YFG are holding a seminar "Liberal Laws & the decline of Civilised Society" on tuesday 6th in Dublin. covers this topic almost too well.
"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little." - Edmund Burke
Frank Ward would be a good example of someone who is beyond reform. 54 year old career violent criminal.
Apparently life is 12 years. I wonder how many years he will serve...A 54-year-old man has been sentenced to life imprisonment for shooting and stealing from publican Charlie Chawke.
The court heard that Ward has six previous convictions including five for robbery and firearms offences.
Ward received three 12-year sentences for three charges of possessing a firearm. All of the sentences will run concurrently.
Clearly he effort made to reform him & given his 'stats' it is likely not possible.
Any one know how our sentences compare with other countries?
Maybe. But how do we know someone is beyond reform if there is little to either constructively help them become better people once they offend, or upon release there is no major deterrent not to relapse? I'm not trying to be a smart arse here Pete I'm just suggesting that until alternative methods of punishment and reform are implemented in the prison service I don't think it's right to give up and say someone is beyond reform. I mean, is it not well established that prisons are more akin to crime colleges than the life colleges that they should be? Wouldn't whatever investment is put into proactive initiatives to push criminals toward a better life be dramatically recouped if even a small number don't re-offend?
What is pretty clear to me is that with the current system of 'punishment' (pretty lenient sentences/few thinking outside the box rehabilitation plans/holiday camp prisons) we have, and no matter how many extra Gardaí are on the beat, crime levels will continue to rise. Did I hear someone shout Kingdom hoop for Minister for Justice?
Now to me, such a statement is criminal. So will I let you idly rot, unloved, dehumanised, forgotten, make you sit in your cell watching TV for ten hours a day for ten years and then come back to you and presume you'll have magically changed your outlook, ready to set sail on a new course of living? Or would I take you aside, talk to you, see what interests you, read you the bible, ask you to set up a mini-league or teach those that are less educated than you, show you the power of love and forgiveness, give you hope that there is a lot more to life, be it this one or the next, than you'd imagined?
It's attitudes like yours (apologies for the pigeon-holing from one sentence) and Pete's (ah, apologies you feel the way you do!) that hold back needed reform in the prison service. 'Ah shur they're only prisoners, they'll never change, what's the point in doing anything for them, we'll leave 'em have their mobiles and their drugs, keep them quiet.' Rubbish. That will only lead to a culture that fosters recidivists (re-offenders), costing us more money and at the same time we lose out on what a rehabilitated criminal could add to society.
I think I'll take it upon myself (unless someone else wants the job
Its bad enough in jail !!!
While some people can be turned around people need to understand that some people are just bad and need to be kept locked up , i think the death penalty is pointless it costs more to kill someone than to keep them in jail and i all ways think that they are getting off lightly they should be made suffer and kept in jail untill they die off natural causes .
Nobody commiting a murder stops & thinks to themselves i wont get the death penalty for this only 12 years so i may as well do it !!!
Eh??
Because religious people never kill anybody.
One of my favourite religious quotes -
Kill them all, God will know his own.
I fully agree with your sentiments regarding rehabilitation, but I think that the bible has no place in any rehabilitation program.
Last edited by osarusan; 07/11/2007 at 1:09 PM.
Eh??http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108The study counted death penalty case costs through to execution and found that the median death penalty case costs $1.26 million. Non-death penalty cases were counted through to the end of incarceration and were found to have a median cost of $740,000.
In addition to the stuff below you have the effect on the people involved witnesses the gaurds the guy that flicks the switch the family of the criminal.Eh??
It doesnt act as a deterent it is a completly pointless
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/arti...did=108&scid=7
http://www.ascdeaf.com/blog/?p=304
Report to Washington State Bar Association regarding costs
At the trial level, death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 inadditional costs to the prosecution and defense over the cost of trying the same case as an aggravated murder without the death penalty and costs of $47,000 to $70,000 for court personnel.
On direct appeal, the cost of appellate defense averages $100,000 more in death penalty cases, than in non-death penalty murder cases.
Personal restraint petitions filed in death penalty cases on average cost an additional$137,000 in public defense costs.
My impression is that current Irish system makes no effort worth talking about to reform therefore it seems to be about punishment which clearly it does a hopeless job at. Seems the only way the system attempts to reform criminals is by having lenient sentences.
I think you need a bit of both. Attempts to reform small time criminals but then harsher sentences to punish violent & repeat offenders. There should some sort of prison company for getting them to work & learn a skill. Using the Frank Ward guy in the news the cliche of throwing away the key is the only solution - I would guess he a guaranteed re-offender once to released.
But you can't caim he's the standard convict.
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Am I the only one who opened this thread expecting a debate about Dostoyevsky?
Can I just throw out a question: does anyone know of a good model prison system anywhere in the world? One with a very high success rate of rehabilitation or something of the sort?
I was thinking of a system of "payback" set a certain amount of money to be paid to the criminal for doing a certain job. (Will only really work for petty crimes)
Add bonus payments for taking part in the schooling system in there. (Getting you’re leaving cert/learning a trade etc)
Bonus for getting off drugs.
Bonus for good behavior.
Have a list of things that show the criminal is trying to make a better life for himself and also contribute to society.
So here is how it would work say the guy goes out and robs a car worth 10,000. The guy who looses his car is down ten grand so the government pays the victim the 10,000 as a loan from the criminal and he has to pay back the ten grand to the government through this system.
The length of the sentence is dependant on how long it takes to pay back that loan
Say a days work = 25euro (10,000/25=400 so that’s 400 days in jail)
Say good behavior bonus = 1000
Trade = 1000
Clean from drugs =2000
So his bonus = 4000 amount to be repaid then = 10,000-4,000=6,000 / 25 =240 days or 8 months
So this way the Victim gets his compensation from the criminal something that doesn’t happen now.
The criminal actually pays for what he has done something that doesn’t happen now
The criminal actually gets a chance to better there life when they come out as he is now clean/ has a trade etc.
The criminal gets a sense of worth and a sense of what he did was wrong rather than letting him rot in a cell thinking the whole world is against him and thinking of ways of making them pay.
The money saved be releasing him early and of course the job he does would probibly save the goverment the initial 10 grand any way
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