Tookie Williams executed in California

[superfrank]

However, being a Pireu Blood myself I know little of Crip gang culture

Well I listen to Snoop Dogg so it's kinda obvious he's still a Crip.

Really? You have Bloods in Limerick?

[Thunderblaster]

Tookie Williams deserved what he got. Try talking to the relatives of the victims that the death penalty is immoral to them. And there are other people rotting in jails that should have being strung up for their crimes. It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.

[Hither green]

It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.

Frying him doesn't bring them back either.

[Peadar]

Frying him doesn't bring them back either.

They didn't fry him, they marinated him!

[joeSoap]

Tookie Williams deserved what he got. Try talking to the relatives of the victims that the death penalty is immoral to them. And there are other people rotting in jails that should have being strung up for their crimes. It is easy for him to "mend his ways" in jail, but it does not bring back four people he savagely butchered.

What Mr Nally did was nothing more to protect his life and his property against an individual with a horrendous criminal record. If John Frog Ward was alive 200 years ago, he would have been convicted at court and he would have been taken back to the place of detention from where he would be taken to a place where he would be hung by the neck until he was dead and his body disposed of by law. In them times, hanging was the short drop where the convict would struggle hard before death. An Irish man brought in the long drop, which speeded up death. Mr Ward got the punishment he deserved and it put many of his victim's minds at rest. Mr Nally should be freed from jail and made an Honourary Mayo Person of the Year..

So, you condone one form of murder, but not another??

[aido_b]

you just have too!!!!

aido ye should come down to london for a weekend on the beer!!

yeah will do paul, im down the end of january for 2 weeks working

[John83]

In response to A face's post, if I was a tax payer then yes, I would be pi$$ed off at my tax money going to keeping pieces of dirt like "Tookie" in prison clothes and gruel.

Dutch mate of mine sent me this:
http://www.cijfers.net/horror_03.html

En nee, executeren is bepaald niet goedkoper dan opsluiten. In de Amerikaanse staat Florida kost het veroordelen en terechtstellen van een moordenaar gemiddeld US $ 3 200 000,- Voor dat bedrag kun je ook zes mensen levenslang opsluiten...

Translates as:

Execution isn't cheaper than locking someone up for life. The price tag attached to covincting and executing a murderer in the American State of Florida amounts to US$ 3 200 000.- on average. That amount would suffice for locking up six people for a life time in jail.

Given the appeals system they have in place, it's not cheap to put a man to death, no matter how much he deserves it.

[Thunderblaster]

So, you condone one form of murder, but not another??

Mr. Nally was convicted of Manslaughter.

[Marked Man]

Dutch mate of mine sent me this:
http://www.cijfers.net/horror_03.html


Translates as:

Given the appeals system they have in place, it's not cheap to put a man to death, no matter how much he deserves it.

Which is why, in Texas, appeals are only allowable if new evidence is adduced within 30 days of the conviction. Otherwise, too bad.

[Dodge]

Never let Texas become the international standard. Jesus even in America its seen as too right wing...

[Marked Man]

Never let Texas become the international standard. Jesus even in America its seen as too right wing...

Not sure it is seen as too right wing any more here in the states, except on the coasts.

Wasn't suggesting that we should let it become the standard; just pointing out that the argument that we shouldn't have the death penalty on the basis of its costing more than life in prison cuts both ways.

[Fergie's Son]

Sometimes I stagger at the level of ignorance in Ireland. What's even worse is that we hold ourselves up to be more informed and clued in the then the Americans.

To begin, being against Tookie Williams' execution because you are against the death penalty is a perfectly reasonable and intellectually tenable position. Being against the death penalty because you believe Williams had reformed or wasn't guilty is not defensible.

As for the Governor, there really wasn't a lot that he could do. Williams had gone through more than 20 years of appeals. The court room is really the place for matters of guilt and innocence to play out. Over a long period of time with impartial triers of fact. The clemency appeal is there to try and avoid mistakes and/or halt the execution in extreme circumstances. The Governor has very little leeway. Put another way, for the Governor to just grant clemency willy-nilly would be to reject his role as a government official and also to reject more than 5 levels of the U.S. judicial system. That's a mighty burden to meet. So, blaming the Governor is just not appropriate.

As for Mr. Williams himself, it appears that he did not reform and the he did not deserve clemency.

Here are two articles on the subject. One from a left-wing point of view and the other from a right-wing point of view:

One from the Right wing press:

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Re...le.asp?ID=20380
Despite his alleged turnaround, prison officials state Williams is still involved with the Crips, directing action from his jail cell for the past eleven years. San Quentin spokesman Vernell Crittendon notes Tookie still maintains an “unusually large bank account,” being mailed checks 50 or 100 times larger than those other inmates (like Scott Peterson) receive. Not only has he never admitted guilt in the murder – much less expressed any remorse – and continues to consort with Crips in prison.


And one from the left:

http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld...ts/13189808.htm
"By 1994, having firmly entrenched himself as the leader of the Crips at San Quentin, he wielded his power as his lieutenants and other minions were dispatched to carry out his objectives," according to the release.

[Marked Man]

[QUOTE=Fergie's Son]
Being against the death penalty because you believe Williams had reformed or wasn't guilty is not defensible.

Why not? Isn't there a straightforward argument based on the good that might be brought about by a reformed gang member, who has published work attempting to put young people off gangs?

And surely if you think he wasn't guilty there is an even more straightforward argument against executing him?

[Lionel Ritchie]

While I'm against capital punishment I find it difficult to summon sympathy for Williams.

There was a bizzarre statistic revealed on Morning Ireland about two weeks ago where a US commentator (quite pro-death penalty) claimed that in the thirty years since the re-introduction of the death penalty -no less than One Hundred THOUSAND innocent citizens have been shot dead by police forces across the country by accident, crossfire, friendly fire, mistaken identity etc...

I think his general point was to ask where are all the "placard waving leftie pinko liberals" who protest at a few hundred executions and why aren't they clamouring for the cops to be disarmed? ( I think he'll find many of them are -but when your constitution enshrines the right to bear arms your police force isn't much of a 'force' without the right to bear more than you.

[Fergie's Son]

Why not? Isn't there a straightforward argument based on the good that might be brought about by a reformed gang member, who has published work attempting to put young people off gangs?

And surely if you think he wasn't guilty there is an even more straightforward argument against executing him?

The point is that there is no evidence that he has reformed. In fact, everything suggests that he did not reform at all. He has never expressed any remorse for his crimes, he has never assisted the police in infiltrating the Crips (he could do more with that than with 1,000 children's books) and there is even evidence that he continued to run the Crips whilst in jail. Indeed, he was connected with a plot to escape from prison that involved killing several people.

He was found guilty in numerous courts and has had more than 20 years of appeal. The courts are the best place to hear evidence and establish a persons' guilt or innocence.

Being against his execution because you are against capital punishment is fine. Being against his execution because you think he was innocent or that he "reformed" is not. The facts clearly show that he was both guilty and anything but reformed.

[tricky_colour]

Question asked today ..... "but isn't it easier on the tax payers, not having to pay for them to be keep locked for life"

Discuss !!!

I suppose you could make a similar arguement for joy riders etc..
Apparently there is a guy in Iran who is to be executed for being drunk
(drinking alcohol). (Don't think I will be holidaying there )

Apart from anything else I am against the death penalty because miscarriages
of justice do happen, apparently it's called capital
punishment because you generally 'get off' if you are wealthy and can
afford good lawyers so it is your capital (money) which is punished in
paying the lawyers fees, O J Simpson for example.
Most of the people in the USA who get executed are poor and black.

Apparently US state of Illinois alone, from 1977 to 2000 executed 13
people subsequently found to be innocent!!

Also the list of countries which use capital punishment tends to be
opressive regimes such as Iran, China, USA etc...

[Marked Man]

"The point is that there is no evidence that he has reformed. In fact, everything suggests that he did not reform at all. He has never expressed any remorse for his crimes, he has never assisted the police in infiltrating the Crips (he could do more with that than with 1,000 children's books) and there is even evidence that he continued to run the Crips whilst in jail. Indeed, he was connected with a plot to escape from prison that involved killing several people."

In fairness, now. The man claimed to be innocent. Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. But he can't very well express remorse for murder and claim to be innocent, can he?

"He was found guilty in numerous courts and has had more than 20 years of appeal. The courts are the best place to hear evidence and establish a persons' guilt or innocence."

If you get a chance, take a look at "After Innocence," a new documentary on the lives of a group of men here in the states, each of whom was wrongly sentenced to life in prison, and later exhonerated by DNA evidence. Luckily for them, they were in states that did not have the death penalty. Each of them were also found guilty in numerous courts.

"Being against his execution because you are against capital punishment is fine. Being against his execution because you think he was innocent or that he "reformed" is not. The facts clearly show that he was both guilty and anything but reformed."

The facts clearly showed that the Birmingham Six and Guildford Four were guilty too at the time of their convictions. I've never been sure enough of anything to stake someone's life on my confidence.

[Fergie's Son]

In fairness, now. The man claimed to be innocent. Maybe he was and maybe he wasn't. But he can't very well express remorse for murder and claim to be innocent, can he?

He was found guilty in a court of law by a jury of his peers. He subsequently had more than 20 years of appeals through 5 different courts. No system is perfect but this is the best system we have. Based on the detailed analysis of the courts I'd say he was most certainly guilty.

If you get a chance, take a look at "After Innocence," a new documentary on the lives of a group of men here in the states, each of whom was wrongly sentenced to life in prison, and later exhonerated by DNA evidence. Luckily for them, they were in states that did not have the death penalty. Each of them were also found guilty in numerous courts.

I live in the US and I am quite against the death penalty. Again, please try and read people's arguments before commenting. If you are against the death penalty because you are against the idea of capital punishment then I agree with you. To say, however, that you are against the death penalty because Tookie Williams was innocent or that he had reformed is simply wrong. He was not innocent and he most certainly had not reformed. See the difference?

[Marked Man]

[QUOTE=Fergie's Son]He was found guilty in a court of law by a jury of his peers. He subsequently had more than 20 years of appeals through 5 different courts. No system is perfect but this is the best system we have. Based on the detailed analysis of the courts I'd say he was most certainly guilty.

Take a look at today's New York Times, and there is an editorial discussing a case of a severely mentally handicapped person in Texas who will most likely be executed, and where the appeals court has refused to hear evidence relating to his IQ. Even the best system (assuming that this is the best system) makes mistakes.

I live in the US and I am quite against the death penalty. Again, please try and read people's arguments before commenting.

Now if you're going to get snippy with people, make sure you read their posts first yourself. Otherwise you end up looking silly. Show me anything I said that suggested you didn't live in the US or were not against the death penalty.

If you are against the death penalty because you are against the idea of capital punishment then I agree with you. To say, however, that you are against the death penalty because Tookie Williams was innocent or that he had reformed is simply wrong. He was not innocent and he most certainly had not reformed. See the difference?

Thanks for the Sarcasm 101.
I have no idea whether or not he was innocent. I'll agree that the evidence strongly suggests his guilt. But as I pointed out earlier, the evidence has often strongly suggested the guilt of the innocent. If he was innocent, he can't reform (see my last post). If he was guilty, why would you insist that reforming requires him to inform on other (minority) members of gangs, when he has excellent reason to believe that none of them would get a fair trial (blacks, hispanics here are up to 7 times more likely to be found guilty and be sentenced to death). I don't buy at all the line that says you have to inform on everyone you knew to show that you have reformed

[Marked Man]

From today's New York Times

Rushing to Execute in Texas
The Supreme Court has held that it is unconstitutional to execute the mentally retarded, and Marvin Lee Wilson appears to fall into that category. But Mr. Wilson, who is on Texas' death row, may be executed anyway, because his lawyer missed a deadline, and the federal appeals court that rejected his claim last week is blind to the injustice of what is happening. Mr. Wilson's execution should be blocked. Beyond that, his case should cause Congress to stop its reckless campaign to make it even easier than it is now to carry out executions.

Mr. Wilson, whose I.Q. was measured at 61, appears to meet the legal standard for mental retardation. The Constitution therefore prohibits him from being put to death. But the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit does not seem to care. It ruled last week that because his lawyer filed his legal papers late, he has forfeited his right to object.

It is easy to see how Mr. Wilson's lawyer made a mistake. The morass of rules that have developed for when death row inmates must file papers in different state and federal courts makes occasional errors inevitable. Whatever the skills of Mr. Wilson's lawyer, the system as a whole is filled with overburdened, unenergetic and incompetent lawyers, as the Texas Defender Service documented in a report entitled "Lethal Indifference."

It is the courts' job to ensure that inadequate lawyering does not lead to people who are not eligible for the death penalty, like Mr. Wilson, being executed. But the Fifth Circuit did not even bother to address his most critical claim: that a federal law about how cases are to be handled should not trump the Supreme Court's determination that the Constitution does not permit a whole class of people to be put to death.

If a lawyer's slip-up can lead to the execution of someone who is exempt from capital punishment, the American justice system is diminished. Republicans in Congress are pushing for passage of the Streamlined Procedures Act, a bad law that would make it even more likely that mistakes are made in administering capital punishment. Congress should drop that bill and fix the flaws in the current system that allow Mr. Wilson to be headed toward an execution for which he is constitutionally ineligible.