Do we want to just be a defensive team forever so? Surely there has to be a happy medium!Originally Posted by Diggs246
Its really not that complicated!!!
I think we are all in agreement that the fai need to restructure football at all youth levels which absolutely should include changing our philosophy. The reality of our next senior international manager and probably the next few as well being honest, is to do the best he can to win and qualify us to tournaments.
International managers really dont have time to do anything else but that.
The happy medium won't happen ever while the fai are ...the fai
Our youth teams have been reasonably successful in the last few years, I dont know if thats a result of Dokters influence a few years ago, but all our youth teams now play pretty good football and we have a number of very technical players coming though the ranks. Why should that philosophy suddenly change when they get to the seniors.
Its really not that complicated!!!
If Canham wants to make a lasting affect as DOF and going by his own playing background he should look to finally make futsal a thing in Ireland.
Always surprised me why futsal isn't played more here. A game that gives great importance on things such as ball control, creativity, and technique. All things you don't associate with Ireland as a football nation. It won't turn us into Brazil but we might start seeing players being more comfortable on the ball and better at using it in tight spaces.
The youth teams have done ok.
The point is the gap between the standard of player from u21 to senior international football is that it's absolutely a different sport. So a guy might be able to play the ball around at u21 level doesn't mean anything at senior competitive international level.
Serbia won the u21 euros( I think) and their winning goalkeeper went on to play against us, I think it' was the first game of MON and Keane last campaign.. he was literally the worst goal keeper I've ever seen playing senior professional football
When you hear names like Lennon, Bruce and Keane being thrown around, I'd be okay with Hughton.
The way we played in Portugal and Ukraine, and home to Scotland and France, should be the blueprint for how we try to play in the future. Playing ball when it's on, not being afraid of receiving it, given licence to pass, link up, and create - but also being tough, resilient, aggressive, streetwise, and able to hit teams on the break with our pace. We should be capable of doing that, while not being so naïve and open at the back, and headless with our pressing. That's the dream, anyway.
Playing exciting, attacking football would be great if the likes of Moran, Razi, Orazi, Akechukwu, Zefi, O'Mahoney, Heffernan, Melia and others come through and get to EPL/Champions League starting XI standard. We just can't survive if we're doing that with lower Championship players and benchwarmers. I love Jason Knight's hustle, but he's not technically up to it at the highest level, and he's probably been our best midfielder in this campaign.
Unless the game has completely passed him by in the last few years, I don't think Hughton would necessarily signal a regression to the aimless, blundering long-ball stuff and frustrating conservatism with selection that we suffered through in the past. Like Doyle, Walters and McGoldrick chasing their own flick-ons with no support; Sammon, Cox, Green and McShane being preferred to Long, Hoolahan, Andy Reid and Coleman; or all those times when we put ten men behind the ball against the likes of Georgia.
I'm not saying CH didn't do a good job with the players he had, or that he's a bad manager generally.
But it is a myth to say that "he signed" all those players, for Brighton (like eg Brentford), have a very sophisticated stats- and analysis-driven recruitment system which relies on a huge network of individuals' input to make it work:
https://www.wearebrighton.com/newsop...ghton-success/
Within that set-up, the manager (head coach?) will obviously have a say on signings, but by no means the final one, never mind the only one.
And in the wider context, this excerpt is notable:
"The approach is not just restricted to players. There is little doubt analytics and data played a part in putting Graham Potter in Bloom’s sights before Potter had even left little-known Ostersunds for Swansea City."
In other words, regardless of how well BHA thought of Hughton, they must have felt their system had identified a better manager in Potter, with their subsequent progress arguing the point very strongly.
You can basically drop 21s into 3 camps:
1) sure things / definite or very likely to get caps or to be an international
2) have a chance if things go right
3) 21s is the limit of their potential
Looking at the previous 21s group from 2000/01, it's something like this
1) Collins, Knight, Obafemi, Idah, Smallbone, Connolly
2) Lyons, O'Connor, McGuinness, O'Brien, Bagan, Coventry, Kilkenny, Connell, Devoy, Johansson, Noss, Tierney, Kerrigan, Wright, Moylan, Omochere, Afolabi
3) Maher, McEntee, Richards, O'Malley, Ledwidge, Bowden, Hondermarck, Watson, Grant (probably), McEneff, Kavanagh, Flynn, Gilbert, Ferry, Regba, Kayodi (probably), Cassidy, Williams
I would qualify that slightly to say it's not that GP doesn't want a job, rather it's that he doesn't want just any job.
That is, he can afford to be choosy. And that while JRG explains CH's periods out of work by saying he was turning down lots of job offers, the same holds true for GP since leaving Chelsea. And without having any inside or expert knowledge, I'd still be prepared to bet that some of the jobs GP is turning down are rather more attractive than those CH rejected.
Evidence suggests otherwise -
At Newcastle Hughton had a squad that included Jose Enrique, Kevin Nolan, Joey Barton, Danny Simpson, Joans Gutterrez, Alan Smith, Mike Williamson, Andy Carroll, Shola Ameobi, Cheick Toite, Lua Lua, Steven Taylor, Peter Lovenkrands, - that squad played exciting attacking football - they scored a lot of goals and they let in a lot of goals - beating Villa 6-0, Sunderland 5-1, and losing to Bolton 5-1 - by the time Hughton was sacked only four teams had scored more goals - Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea and Bolton.
The year Brighton won promotion they scored 74 goals (only Newcastle scored more) - and they had one stretch unbeaten in 18 with 14 wins. Four players scored more than ten goals each - Glenn Murray got 23. At times they were knocking goals in for fun.
One other thing with Hughton's teams - they knew how to score from set-pieces.
Graham Potter is a very ambitious individual - and has stated as much himself - the teams that he has been linked with include such luminaries as Rangers, Lyon and the Swedish international job - except he didn't make the short-list of any of them.
You say he is not working because he doesn't want a job - I would argue it is because he hasn't been offered a job by anyone. His f*uk-up at Chelsea was so bad and so public that many clubs won't touch him with a barge pole. Now - he will eventually get a job because managers are recycled - but I would be surprised if he gets one in the PL because anyone looking for a manager there will be desperate to avoid relegation and Potter has never shown he is capable of doing that kind of a job. It is far more likely that he will reappear in France or the low countries or Scandinavia.
I can't think about Chris Hughton without remembering a game in Lansdowne Road early in Jack's reign.. might have been against Uruguay. Hughton, who I agree always comes across really well as a person and who was pretty classy as a player too, was playing and made a great tackle, crowd were happy enough. At some point later in the match he made a hames of something ,tumbled over the ball, and (IIRC) conceded a corner. One of a group of lads in front of me turned to his mates and went '****ing bl*ck b*rsteward' and they all roared laughing. Scumbags. Not that there's ever any excuse, but this wasn't even abuse aimed at someone on another team!!
Footballing-wise, he wouldn't be a bad choice at all. Beyond football (and there are elements of the Ireland team that are beyond the 90 minutes) part of me thinks he shouldn't bother his hole taking on the Ireland job given some of the toxic attitudes of yesteryear, but he probably isn't as petty as I am. Another part of me thinks about how much Ireland, and Irish football, has changed since the mid-80s and in that context he would be brilliant.
While I agree with your point in general, the way you've phrased it here does sound a bit...ambitious, I think. Moran looks a player, though it's early days yet. Any of the others could be on the scrapheap in five years' time. The odds are surely against any of them making it at the level you suggest?
It's a bigger problem than our manager, though of the manager is an easier fix in theory (and is surely part of the problem of course)
Well - we do know that Hughton turned down Watford, Bristol City and WBA before taking the Forest job (my contact contends that he was also offered two other jobs that he turned down). He was also offered several jobs as a first team coach by PL clubs after leaving Brighton - and he is now with Ghana (and it is unlikely at 64 years of age that he will end up in club management again)
You say that Potter won't take any job - and I am sure that is true. The PR machine was in overdrive when the media were claiming that he turned down the Lyon job before there was even a vacancy there. He publicly ruled himself out of the Rangers job after he didn't make the shortlist - and there was PR about him turning down Nice. Word emerges that he is 'interested' in a job and reports come out saying he rejected the job. In fact the only job that looks like it was a realistic prospect was Leicester immediately after he was sacked by Chelsea - but Potter isn't a fight relegation manager - he is a given me a stable club, with a decent squad and buy me lots of new players, type of manager.
Now - I think Potter is a decent manager (not as good as De Zebri but decent) - but I do think he has to be in a very good situation for him to succeed. His reputation has been inflated by a very good PR machine that he has behind him. For example - he was touted as a genius for taking Ostersund from the fourth tier of Swedish football to the top division with no money. It turned out afterwards that the chairman was charged, convicted and imprisoned for embezzlement, bribery, accounting and tax offences after siphoning off large sums of government money and local council grants (he had to pay back almost €1m) and funneling them through the club to bring in players who were subsequently paid under the table. Potter jumped ship just as the sh*t was about to hit the fan. Ostersund have been declining since and will eventually end back at their real level.
Potter took over Swansea when they had been relegated from the PL - they had parachute money and held most of their squad together. In Potter's only season they finished 10th with a +3 goal difference and bounced between 8th and 15th the entire season. He then ended up bouncing into the Brighton job because of Dan Ashworth - with a transfer budget of £100m and Bissouma, MacAllister, Dunk, Burn, March, Sanchez, Gross, and Propper already in the squad.
By the way - Brighton have absolutely fleeced Chelsea over the past couple of years - £21.5m for Potter - Cucurella for £63m - Sanchez for £25m - Caicedo for £115m (after they used Liverpool to bump up the price). Tony Bloom is one of the smartest owners in the PL.
You are 100% correct about how clubs approach signing players - but Hughton did have a say. By the way - Brighton did buy some donkeys during Hughton's two year stint with them in the PL - so the analytics can produce duds as well.
I have explained Potter's unwarranted reputation from Ostersund - and anyone having him on their radar after the scandal that broke would be an idiot. He got the job at Brighton not because Bloom had been eyeing up Potter - but because Dan Ashworth was appointed to a position where he could get Hughton sacked and Potter appointed
Ike Orazi is a beast and will be playing for Ireland by somewhere in the 20-23 range depending on how it pans out... His medium end outcome is Festy Ebosele. His high end outcome is really really good.
What you are hoping for - and what the target should be - is 2/3 players from each of the underage teams come through over a 5/6 period - it allows the best players for continuity at full international level and then some replenishing to be done.
Now - this seems to be the best crop of kids since the youth teams with Keane, Duff, Richard Dunne - and the problem is to keep a steady flow of talent coming through rather than having booms and slumps. That requires organisation, structure and some really good coaching at underage level.
And weeding out " The Headers " (wink)
Moran has a lot of potential - I do think he needs to bulk up a bit - he is small and light-weight at the moment. He needs to be stocky if he is small so that he doesn't get pushed off the ball. Seeing him standing beside Ferguson (who is a big lad) really shows how light he is. Now - I think Moran will develop - he has recently been given a long-term contract by Brighton and they don't do that lightly.
Here is the problem - both Connolly and Molumby came through the Brighton set-up and I blame Potter for both going off the boil. With Connolly he put him into the first team squad too early - he should have given him a year on loan in the Championship (or even League One). Molumby was a different problem. As an underage player Molumby was a midfield passer of the ball - I can't remember which underage international I saw but he was pinging the ball around like Liam Brady used to do. He went on loan to Millwall and did well - but then he went on a disasterous loan to Preston where they wanted him to be a box-to-box chase down the ball type of player and I think it ruined him. He didn't know what type of player he should be - he lost his confidence in his ability to pass the ball and when he went to WBA on loan they used him in exactly the same way as Preston did. He seems lost to me and can't get to grips with his role (which leads him into rash tackles and not having much influence on games). This is now impacting him at WBA because the new manager doesn't want that type of player in his midfield and there is a danger that Molumby will start to drift down through lower teams.
So - to summarise - in my opinion - Brighton should have sent Connolly out on loan and after Millwall they should have kept Molumby at home and coached up his passing ability. It looks like Connolly is starting to turn a corner - but unfortunately I think Molumby will start to slip down the ladder with Ireland as (and if) other midfielders come through (which is our weakest position at the moment).
I do think O'Mahoney has a good chance - he is doing very well at Brighton - and he is a clone of Ferguson. If he turns out to be 25% of what Ferguson is he will be a decent footballer.
I have also been impressed with Sinclair Armstrong, Bosun Lawal and Tony Springett and to a lesser degree Rocco Vata. Trent Kone-Doherty also looks like he could be good. If we were to get the five of them with Moran and O'Mahoney we would have a good haul from the U-21s and U-19s.
And we do need a manager who at least looks like he knows what he is doing.
By the way - I think that the LOI will benefit significantly from the large number of players in the underage set-up - a lot of them could end up with really good LOI careers and significantly raise the standard of LOI football.
Last edited by Jolly Red Giant; 16/11/2023 at 8:12 PM.
I agree to a point, and he will naturally bulk up as he gets older, but in modern day football the likes of Foden and David Silva are not particularly muscular
Its really not that complicated!!!
I probably should have bolded the 'if' in my post!
If we want to get back to being competitive in qualification groups, we do need a core of 7-8 players operating at Nathan Collins's level, or higher.
Albania are on the verge of qualifying, which seems like a huge shock, but they have players at Chelsea, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Atalanta, Eintracht Frankfurt and Benfica, which is a level above the vast majority of our squad. It's not that long ago (v Uruguay in 2017) that we could put out a starting XI of Premier League regulars.
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