Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, fair. The Championship is a decent league but there's a big gap to the Premier (as Burnley are showing) and there's a big gap from the bottom half to the Champions League. And a lot of average countries have a core of even 2/3 players at that level which is a big advantage over us.

I was looking at that Albania squad recently and was amazed how strong it was. Tis a good example. I think we're a long way off that level. Which is quite a depressing thing to have to acknowledge!

[Jolly Red Giant]

I probably should have bolded the 'if' in my post!

If we want to get back to being competitive in qualification groups, we do need a core of 7-8 players operating at Nathan Collins's level, or higher.

Albania are on the verge of qualifying, which seems like a huge shock, but they have players at Chelsea, Inter, Roma, Lazio, Atalanta, Eintracht Frankfurt and Benfica, which is a level above the vast majority of our squad. It's not that long ago (v Uruguay in 2017) that we could put out a starting XI of Premier League regulars.

I think you are over-egging the standard of that team in 2017

Randolph wasn't a regular at West Ham
Christie was in the Championship
Duffy was just after getting promoted with Brighton a couple of weeks earlier
Long played 3 games in the PL the previous season
Ward was a regular at Burnley
Whelan had just left Burnley to join Villa in the Championship
Arter was a regular at Bournemouth
Brady had just left Norwich in the Championship for Burnley
Hendrick was a regular for Burnley
Hayes was with Aberdeen
Walters with a sub at Stoke and on his way to Burnley where he didn't play

Of the subs
John O'Shea had just been relegated with Sunderland
McClean was a regular with WBA
And the rest were playing Championship or below.

Hardly inspiring -

Now - on top of that - since mid 2017 a stack of PL clubs have been taken over by vulture funds - Villa, Bournemouth, Burnley, Eveton, Newcastle, Wolves - to add to the others already owned by billionaire funds - and they are looking more at their balance sheet than anything else. Irish players do not traditionally generate high transfer fees, especially in comparison to English players (and our traditional involvement in English football and prejudice against the Irish leads Irish players being regarded as second class English players). If Rice had remained with Ireland, West Ham would have got £50m or less for him - same with Grealish. Interesting side fact - the five most expensive English footballers of all time all hold Irish passports.

[Jolly Red Giant]

Yeah, fair. The Championship is a decent league but there's a big gap to the Premier (as Burnley are showing) and there's a big gap from the bottom half to the Champions League. And a lot of average countries have a core of even 2/3 players at that level which is a big advantage over us.

That is our problem - We don't have people playing at CL level which does have an impact. You have to go back to 2011 or 2012 when the likes of O'Shea, Robbie Keane, McGeady and Darren Gibson were playing. And the only real prospect we have at the moment is Ferguson (Kelleher has played a few - but that doesn't really count).

Now - that doesn't mean that we cannot have a good international team - it means that the coaching staff know how to maximise what we have available, make us difficult to beat, and can score a few goals that can win us enough games to qualify (and Ferguson comes into play there again).

We can play all the pretty passing football we want when the ball is in our own half - but that doesn't cut it when teams can cut through your defence like a knife through butter.

[Supreme feet]

I think you are over-egging the standard of that team in 2017

Randolph wasn't a regular at West Ham
Christie was in the Championship
Duffy was just after getting promoted with Brighton a couple of weeks earlier
Long played 3 games in the PL the previous season
Ward was a regular at Burnley
Whelan had just left Burnley to join Villa in the Championship
Arter was a regular at Bournemouth
Brady had just left Norwich in the Championship for Burnley
Hendrick was a regular for Burnley
Hayes was with Aberdeen
Walters with a sub at Stoke and on his way to Burnley where he didn't play
.

Okay, fair enough, The stat came from something I read on The42 a while back, which was obviously BS, and I didn't check it.

Still, between 2014 and 2017, our first-choice team was generally Randolph; Coleman, Brady/Ward, Duffy/O'Shea, Clark/Keogh; McCarthy, Whelan/Meyler, Hoolahan/Hendrick, McClean, Walters, Long/Murphy.

We consistently had a core of well-established EPL players, or players with significant EPL experience, starting for us. The others were at the top end of the Championship (Murphy was the top scorer in the Championship, with 27 goals, in 2015/6). It was a far, far better squad than we have now.

[tetsujin1979]

FWIW the last time we had a starting XI of entirely Premier League players was V Germany in 2006, Staunton's first competitive game.
Shay Given(Newcastle Utd)
John O'Shea(Manchester United)
Andy O'Brien(Portsmouth)
Richard Dunne(Manchester City)
Stephen Carr(Newcastle Utd)
Damien Duff(Newcastle Utd)
Steven Reid(Blackburn)
Kevin Kilbane(Wigan)
Steve Finnan(Liverpool)
Kevin Doyle(Reading)
Robbie Keane(Tottenham)

That sounds bad, and it is, but you have to remember that Robbie moved to MLS soon after, and he started every game he was available for, so any game he did start had at least one player who wasn't in the Premier League

[passinginterest]

FWIW the last time we had a starting XI of entirely Premier League players was V Germany in 2006, Staunton's first competitive game.
Shay Given(Newcastle Utd)
John O'Shea(Manchester United)
Andy O'Brien(Portsmouth)
Richard Dunne(Manchester City)
Stephen Carr(Newcastle Utd)
Damien Duff(Newcastle Utd)
Steven Reid(Blackburn)
Kevin Kilbane(Wigan)
Steve Finnan(Liverpool)
Kevin Doyle(Reading)
Robbie Keane(Tottenham)

That sounds bad, and it is, but you have to remember that Robbie moved to MLS soon after, and he started every game he was available for, so any game he did start had at least one player who wasn't in the Premier League

I suppose it might be interesting to count down from last time we had 10, 9, 8, etc. The least premier league players in a starting line-up for a competitive fixture?

[zero]

Ghana being held at home by Madagascar. 0-0 at the moment with about 20 mins to go. Hughton could be available fairly soon...

edit: ghana score in the 96th minute with basically the last play of the game.

[Razors left peg]

Ghana being held at home by Madagascar. 0-0 at the moment with about 20 mins to go. Hughton could be available fairly soon...

edit: ghana score in the 96th minute with basically the last play of the game.

This is why we shouldnt want him

[SkStu]

Did Hughton pee in your cornflakes Razor? I know JRG is at one end of the spectrum but you seem to be firmly entrenched at the other end and I'm not sure its as black and white as either of you making out. Given the constraints we are working within, he has a case to be considered. Decent, if imperfect, track record as a manager, Irish, respected coach. He'd also be our first black manager which would be pretty cool (but shouldnt influence the choice if there are better candidates).

[pineapple stu]

They won 1-0 in the end; 96th minute winner. He may be a lucky general too

Rajo Razafindraibeharimihanta got booked for Madagascar. Madagascan names are great!

[JR89]

They won 1-0 in the end; 96th minute winner. He may be a lucky general too

Rajo Razafindraibeharimihanta got booked for Madagascar. Madagascan names are great!

His full name is Soloniaina Rajo Nirina Razafindraibeharimihanta

[seanfhear]

His full name is Soloniaina Rajo Nirina Razafindraibeharimihanta

I assume the Ref just wrote his number down !

[CSAD]

Okay, fair enough, The stat came from something I read on The42 a while back, which was obviously BS, and I didn't check it.

Still, between 2014 and 2017, our first-choice team was generally Randolph; Coleman, Brady/Ward, Duffy/O'Shea, Clark/Keogh; McCarthy, Whelan/Meyler, Hoolahan/Hendrick, McClean, Walters, Long/Murphy.

We consistently had a core of well-established EPL players, or players with significant EPL experience, starting for us. The others were at the top end of the Championship (Murphy was the top scorer in the Championship, with 27 goals, in 2015/6). It was a far, far better squad than we have now.

As good an example of grass is greener syndrome if ever I’ve seen it!

[Razors left peg]

Did Hughton pee in your cornflakes Razor? I know JRG is at one end of the spectrum but you seem to be firmly entrenched at the other end and I'm not sure its as black and white as either of you making out. Given the constraints we are working within, he has a case to be considered. Decent, if imperfect, track record as a manager, Irish, respected coach. He'd also be our first black manager which would be pretty cool (but shouldnt influence the choice if there are better candidates).

Ah my comment today was a little tongue in cheek, but no I dont rate him. Ive heard a few people say that we should go for a manager with international experience. I think Hughtons International managerial experience has been awful.

[Jolly Red Giant]

This is why we shouldnt want him

They won 1-0 in the end; 96th minute winner. He may be a lucky general too

This thread shouldn't be solely about the merits or not of Chris Hughton - he is one potential candidate - not the only one - but one with better track record than most of the names mentioned.

Yes Ghana won today 1-0 scoring late on - and to a team ranked well below them. They peppered the Madagascar goal in the second half and should have scored 4 or 5 - but they had to wait until the 96th minute to win the game. Hughton himself said that they were very nervous in the first half (that they were feeling the pressure after all the controversy over the past couple of weeks) and they didn't play well. He got them settled at half time and they were very good in the second half, moving the ball quickly, getting the ball in the box, forcing the goalkeeper to make several good saves, had a goal ruled out for a dubious offside - and eventually scored. Football can be like that sometimes.

Now - here is the important thing - Hughton's record with Ghana in competitive internationals - P5 - W3 - D2 - L0 - GF5 - GA1

[Jolly Red Giant]

I know JRG is at one end of the spectrum

I would actually dispute this - my argument has consistently been that of all the names mentioned who are realistic prospects Hughton has a much better track record than all of them. This shouldn't mean that is automatically made the manager - but that he should be given serious consideration if he wanted the job.

Decent, if imperfect, track record as a manager, Irish, respected coach.

There are few managers with a perfect track record - although I would argue that Hughton is actually a better coach than his record suggests. But I still would rank him below Liam Touhy and Johnny Giles as Irish managers and you have to give Jack Charlton major credit for what he achieved (even if very lucky with the players he had available) - but that couldn't really be judged until he got the job and proved that he could do it better than other potential candidates.

Now - there are certain guys that I would be absolutely hopping if they got the job because I think they would be a disaster - Neil Lennon, Roy Keane, Robbie Keane, Steve Bruce, Keith Andrews, Mark Kennedy, Damien Duff (or any other LOI manager).

I don't think Anthony Barry or John Eustace are realistic options but would be okay with either. I would also be okay with Lee Carsley or Brian Barry Murphy (who I think could be good - but its only a hunch). John O'Shea I am meh about. Poyet I could get on board and I think Jim Goodwin warrants a look. Someone mentioned Vladimir Petkovic and he is an interesting option - and I do think that Stephen Reid should be considered if he put his name forward.

[SkStu]

Wasn’t meant as a dig at all! To either of you… just two very different takes! (great respect for both of you)

FWIW, he’s in my top 3 realistic candidates (Carsley and Poyet the others). None of them are actually available though and all of them are something of a risk - in different ways. No perfect candidate indeed. Will be interesting to see it play out. There’s a good chance we go from the frying pan to the fire.

[MylesNotMiley]

Thomas Christiansen currently managing Panama (had a brief spell at Leeds back when they were a basket case).

Got Panama to the Gold Cup final and has probably turned them into one of the best sides outside of the big 3/4 in North America.

It's likely they'll qualify for WC26 and already have one foot in the CopaAmerica24 after beating Costa Rica 3-0 away from home a few days ago.

[JR89]

Whoever the next manager is will hopefully be someone that can react to in game situations and make the changes when needed. The two games against the Dutch in particular showed Kenny's lack of tactical nous.

In the first game we put it up to them for the first 45mins but at the start of the second half they went 3-4-3 which freed up the FB/WBs to now get high and cause us issues.

Last night they lined up 3-4-3 on paper but in game at times their front three you could say were Weghorst and the WBs they were often so high up the pitch. Gakpo and Simons were often dropping between the defence and midfield so their midfield four were now outnumbering us centrally which is why maybe Scales found himself so high up the pitch for the first goal.

The half time change of Idah for Robinson showed either he and the staff were oblivious to what the Dutch were doing or he didn't feel the need to adapt to how they were playing.

[zero]

Ah they haven't a notion, SK / Andrews both. Decent guys and they are passionate but it's been clear from early on they're miles out of their depth
If we do hire a proper manager and results improve there'll be rampant revisionism and kenny lauded for bringing players through.

He shouldn't be. His tenure has been pretty much a disaster.